Better ways to do live performances probably. A lot of past live methods are more nichés and only involved Miku to my recall of ones i am aware of. Unfortunately instead in current trajectory might just get "AI" idols and music instead to eliminate producers. I dont think anyone will put up for that path though so it doesnt seem as bleak as it does at first.

>>22291
"AI producers" aren't really welcome in the scene so I don't understand what you mean by that.

If there's one thing I learned from the OKISO and Liar Macaron incidents, it's that if people catch you making a song with AI your career is essentially over. The former was blatant but the latter was more sneaky and used real UTAU vocals. The reason Liar Macaron remains one of the most watched MVs is because by the time it was exposed as an AI song it was already huge.

>As much as it sucks, this "2nd golden age" of Vocaloid will eventually come to an end and bring us back to where we were 10 years ago.
I don't think this is really as much of inevitability as you're suggesting. Vocaloid will undoubtedly cool on some timeline, but I wouldn't forecast a similar "collapse" or decay that was experienced then for a number of reasons, mostly because the audience has a larger global footprint and also because there is actual money to be made in being a producer now.

It's easy to imagine any number of scenarios (algorithm tweaks alone can upend entire industries now, let alone subcultures) but I am curious to see how generative AI impacts vocal synth music overall, both on the music itself and whatever identity Vocaloid has in total. The best destiny for Vocaloid is probably to lean on the characters themselves and you're seeing a lot of that again.

>>22291
>Better ways to do live performances probably
Everything on the tech front is being led by Vtubers now so I wonder if Vocaloid is really even a part of this conversation any more. I think the better framing is how concept-focused lives like Decomiku and Project Voltage might get more into the mix. Very early days for that stuff still.

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>>22292
I actually think generative AI is a major concern. The backlash to it is strong right now, and we may see the investment bubble pop soon, but it's become way too normalized already, not just visuals and audio, but also text. If someone was using AI to generate lyrics, would you even be able to prove it? The integrity of art as a tool to communicate real human emotion has been permanently degraded by the widespread adoption of generative AI, and I'm worried that the kids raised on it today, won't have the reflexive distaste for it that older Vocaloid fans do. I made a similar post about this a while ago in the enshittification thread >>>/g/2610

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The audience will change but it will live on.

>>22301
It already kinda has

>>22292
I just meant if the software companies made like a lot of tech companies and sell out their main consumers and fans to chase a hype thinking it would increase revenue.

>>22293
Yeah though vtubers / virtual singers have been around quite a while now and while I get your point there still is a sort of niche here because synthesized vocals are capable of things human voices are not and can have a specific unique sound. I more meant how some producers also like to be performers doing live sets and being able to control vocals live gives more flexability than timing live music to a recorded vocal track or using just sections in a sampler.

>>22305
Also PinocchioP literally sings

>>22294
I don't think it'll be as bleak as you make it sound

>>22306
A lot of producers have weirdly good singing voices. I do wonder how they would handle singing duet controlling the vocal synthesis live. I mean in cases of it not being voice changer based.

>>22310
I have only heard Pinocchio, Crusher, Hachi and Yuyoyuppe sing

>>22302
Yes, this second golden age was proof of it.
It's why I posted that picture. IA might not be a Superhero anymore, but Teto definitely is, though in the future someone else might be, depending on trends. Vocaloid will continue to exist but it will be in a form we might not recognize.

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>>22327
It's okay IA is still big in different ways

>>22328
Aieeee pls delete that can't be IA that has to be an impostor

>>22330
It's just Luka in IA cosplay

>The fact that this site is so active in an era where imageboards are barely relevant anymore goes to show how many people care about Vocaloid.
Vocaloid forums in general are active. Check Vocaverse for example and you'll see that all of the boards are active and with recent posts. Weirdly though, it does seem like 39chan is the most active one right now considering it has a general PPD of 100+ posts (203 today). I wonder if it's just the novelty or the fact that you don't need an account to post here.

>>22335
Because you don't need to make an account to post or see images

>>22294
Anon you're overthinking it a bit

>>22301
Yep, I think it will transcend generations the way some people from my generation appreciate older music from the 60s and 70s

>>22335
What other people said and also /all/ makes it easy to see the active threads. On some of the vocaloid BBcode forums they have too many subforums for the activity, so you have to go hunting for new posts, and that makes the site feel less lively

>>22400
More forums should have an overboard like most imageboards do

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>>22294
To play devil's advocate a little, people used to say that all digital music tools were ruining the integrity of music as a medium. Vocaloid culture is very much steeped in a generational shift in this idea. If the next generation does the same thing with AI, they'll probably try to use it in ways that are more compatible with human creativity, like what we're already seeing with voicebanks.

>>22437
I don't think AI music will ever truly replace human music

>>22400
Forums in general often have overboards like imageboards do they just label it different and it isnt as easy to spot. They often make it so you can see by recent post or recent thread.

>>22461
Vocaverse has one but i kinda prefer how it works on imageboards since i don't have to enter the threads to read them and i can just reply to whatever i find interesting

>>22464
I agree, but I do wish the number of replies shown was more dynamic. It's always five (except for stickies), regardless of the time between them, so for threads with active discussion, you often have to expand the whole thread just to read the recent posts, while slow threads can have posts separated by months all on the front page.

>>22468
We can change that.
But it's important to hear what the others think. How many posts would you suggest?.

>>22469
Not that anon but the thought about changing it dynamically based on thread speed was interesting. Maybe something like trim any posts from over 1 month ago, or add 2 more posts if they’re newer than 1 hour, or something. As a baseline the current number is comfortable though.

>>22464
I think I have seen some forums do it this way but they dont exist anymore so i dont know what the code or software they used to do it.

>>22469
>How many posts would you suggest?
Not a fixed amount.

Basically what I'm suggesting is a "smarter" script that looks at the recency of posts as well as their proximity in time to one another, in order to decide what shows up on the board. So an old thread with one new reply, would only show that reply; while a thread with an active discussion, would show all the posts starting from the one that began the current conversation, or just the most recent ones if it exceeds some limit.

The idea is that this would be more intuitive for most people, who often don't look at the post date when browsing a board, and so get temporally confused, and may even reply to an ancient post as a result. But this is easier said than done, and should probably be an option that you can turn off if it doesn't work properly.

>>22481
>if it exceeds some limit.
Let's say 10, that might be too much, but I should give a number.

It occurred to me that I must not be the first person to have had this idea, so you might want to find out if someone else has already tried it and see how it went.

Also this really only makes sense for discussion boards, boards like /c/ should not have this on by default. Hiding posts just because they are older than posts surrounding them might be a bad idea in general, and may make the board look devoid of content, so you should carefully consider whether you want something like this to be the default experience, if you go to the trouble of implementing it.

Five posts per thread works well enough, and it may not be possible to improve upon it without trade-offs and downsides.

>>22437
Thank you..I always find it ironic vsynth producers who use an AI program are against minimal transformative uses of AI. (To clarify, no, I do not support 100% generated kuso like Fruit Love Island or CryDie)

https://youtube.com/watch?v=GTGcBP4qu4M

>>22587
I'm not pro-AI either but it has always bothered me that people get mad when you say that Vocaloid (V6 obviously) and SynthV are generative AI. Yes the audio clips used for the voicebank are sourced ethically and it requires human input to sound a certain way but it's still generative AI at the end of the day.

>>22630
AI isn't necessarily a bad thing. It kinda depends on the use you give it which in most cases tends to be for unethical stuff. Vocaloid, SV, etc all use generative AI but it's to make the voices sound smoother, the process of making a Vocaloid song hasn't changed at all and you still gotta tune the vocals yourself.

>>22640
Yeah but try explaining that to the average Vocaloid fan

>>22640
Technically AI is just a marketing term. It really is machine learning.

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>>22587
A lot of people aren't even aware that the tech industry already tried to make computer-generated music a thing, and that was a real part of the anti-digital backlash. If we're lucky, people will forget about the worst AI bubble trash, too.

>>22630
My question is why don't you need a gazzillion gigs of vram for vocaloid and synthv like you need for gen ai stuff? How did they smooth that out for the consumer?

>>22657
Training is what takes all of the resources. Using the bank afterwards just calls the algorithm.

>>22658 (doubleposting)
For that reason I would still put Vocaloid/SynthV in a different category than most Gen AI you'd think of... it's not like you write a prompt and it spits out the song. You're still programming the output, and the results are basically user-defined. The machine learning just replaces the re-synthesis algorithms of traditional voice synth.

>>22658
Sure but the few times I tried to toy with already trained stuff, even voices, it usually requires a lot of vram. Even if it’s just me converting some singing. Idk my computer is a hunk of shit so maybe it’s just bullying me.

>>22655
>forget about the worst AI bubble trash
Unless you're banking on the collapse of every UGC and streaming platform, I wouldn't count on it. Even if you approach it narrowly as a backlash to the tech, people already can't distinguish artificial from real anymore with state of the art models. Spotify's charts are being infected with middle of the road generative music today because 1) people broadly do accept it already, whether they care to notice the usage/disclosure or not, and 2) it's cheap to make and infinitely abundant. An AI bubble popping tomorrow wouldn't change those economics, even the cheap part. The power people do have left to resist this is by abandoning the convenience of platforms like Spotify that thrive on churning mediocrity for a profit. Saying this as someone that does have a homelab kitted out with Plex and more: good luck.

>>22660
This

https://youtube.com/watch?v=CVShb4lZr4w

>>22662
Let me put it this way: If you've heard anything with royalty-free background music in the last thirty years, there's a pretty good chance it's computer-generated. Nobody actually notices or cares, because, well... who's actively listening to that stuff? Perhaps AI-generated music will end up being just as irrelevant to music fans.

>>22661
Vocal synth editors have a lot more manual input and usually render note-by-note, so I'd imagine that helps. I've heard people complain about SynthV 2 being laggy on low-end PCs, though.

>>22671
I feel like most iconic commercials use copyrighted music anyway if not memorable original tracks

While i don't think Vocaloid will ever truly "die" especially not like in the mid 2010's, it does make me wonder how the current era will be looked at the next decade

>>24466 (Me)
Right now it feels like people love the early 2010's and the mid 2010's are kinda divisive, you have people who thought it was the darkest period for Vocaloid and you have people who have fond memories of it.

>>24467
This point is always quite funny because when I looked back into my research, the community impression was that late 2010s were the “dark ages” but when I looked deeper into it, the true “dark age” and only time that Vocaloid could have “died” was back in the early 2010s. Many still think of it like this too despite the truth being somewhat hard to find.

Like I said when V6 was announced, Miku needed Vocaloid more than Vocaloid needed her. Many believed the opposite.

>>24481
When Miku V6 was announced* my bad.

>>24481
>Miku needed Vocaloid more than Vocaloid needed her.
Hatsune Miku as a marketable character will outlive Vocaloid as software. If you mean Crypton needs Yamaha more than Yamaha need Crypton, yeah, obviously. Crypton Future Media has 150 employees, Yamaha has 19,000.

>>24488
No I quite literally mean Miku and by proxy Crypton needed the Vocaloid brand and as such they needed to actually relearn why Miku was so beloved in the first place. Like don’t get me wrong, Miku obviously will stick around but despite NT selling well initially, it was falling flat, after a few years, the well would eventually run dry. Even Japanese users just stuck with Miku V4x even if they bought NT, and there’s a collection of reasons for that.

Yamaha hadn’t even understood CFM’s vision until recently either. The direction Yamaha had taken for years prior put them at odds. Not that Yamaha was ever fully out of the picture, they had advisory roles on NT after all.

Basically, Vocaloid had revived Miku in her moment of need, even if it didn’t quite seem like it.

>>24514 (double-posting but for good reason)
When you factor in business and other demographics perspectives, the conclusions drawn become quite interesting I think. It’s an interesting cycle. When V3 was the main version, Miku saved it, and 3 versions later it saves Miku. It’s repeated in a new form where you’re able to see the direct correlation between the two. Like-wise, the deeper you look at other aspects of the past, you begin to see other things that connect and differ. In a way it offers a greater understanding of what will hopefully come in the future.

That’s me getting overly philosophical and deep about Vocaloid though. I never expect to see someone who’s dug as deep as me into the business side of things, let alone draw similar conclusions to begin with.

>>24514
who are we fucking kidding if they made miku synthv there'd be like 1 billion dollars from that shit

>>24535
There’s the risk that it would sound like Saki Fujita more than Miku. I could see that impacting Miku’s reputation heavily sort of like Cevio Flower. Teto got a pass because her UTAUs are so heavy with engine noise that “kinda close” in tone is close enough.. with Miku I don’t think it applies.

>>24535
Honestly i don't want a realistic Miku because part of her appeal is that she sounds how she does. V6 isn't realistic in the slightest but it's smooth which I'm cool with.

>>24536
Teto is a weird case. I think of her SynthV as the same Teto-chan I knew in the past despite sounding quite different it also sounds just like her at the same time. Only major difference to me is more mature sounding but even that is offset when pitched higher.

>>24535
Yeah but they won't

>>24540
Yeah the Cute/Mini modes help a lot. I think it’s such a radically different engine that we can accept some inconsistencies in the tone

>>24536
Maybe CeVIO is just too different to vocaloid. I mean I have the same issue with CeVIO IA as well.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=A4iUqVqMiAg

>>24514
>>24521
NT is bad - Crypton clearly still needs Yamaha's technology - but as a brand, Vocaloid 6 benefits more by having AI Miku on their platform than Hatsune Miku does by still being a Vocaloid exclusive.

>>24576
Does Saki Fujita even record new samples for her voicebanks anymore? All of these kinda sound identical with NT and V6 being slightly noisier.

>>24577
I kind of doubt it. I wonder if for some reason Saki Fujita is unavailable/uninterested/too expensive or if they’re just having a hard time recreating Miku’s tone with new samples.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=V6TGgCql6Fg

>>24580
Considering that not even Saki Fujita herself can do "the miku voice" I get the feeling that the way she sounds was completely unintentional.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=5Lw_MCcRfKE

If Miku SV existed she would probably sound like this

Does anybody know why there was never a VOCALOID5 Miku?

>>24583
vocaloid 5 had like 6 voicebanks and then they released a new one lol

>>24582
Yeah, this is good but not really Miku-y. I recall hearing that Miku is in her falsetto range and then extrapolated. So I guess it makes sense that AI wouldn’t capture the essence as it typically might.

>>24583
Probably because Crypton had Piapro Studio and NT

>>24582
Too human sounding for my taste

>>24582
Sounds too much like Fujita

>>27099
true

>>24582
I actually like it and that's how I imagined v6 to sound like

>>27123
I expected V6 to sound robotic and noisy because well.. that's how all V6s sound. I did end up liking Miku V6 though, way better than NT.

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This is a bit unrelated to what OP is saying but does anybody else feel alone in today's version of the Vocaloid fandom? i never got to use Tumblr back in the day, in fact, i don't use social media at all. But i feel like back then it was easier to meet fans who were really autistic about Vocaloid as a medium. Today those people are old, married and have mostly outgrown vocaloid so the fandom has been reduced almost entirely to casuals, and as an oldfag it feels isolating and it makes me regret not having made Vocaloid autist friends during the Tumblr era.

>>31519
I grew up with those types of people, and then they outgrow Vocaloid and left me, so I'm inclined to say it wouldn't have changed that much tbh

>>31519
One of the many victims of enshitification of the internet and society in general

>>31519
Yeah i have similar feelings Most vocaloid fans i see online are people who like vocaloid the same way they do regular music or people who "like" vocaloid because of whatever flavor of the month tiktok meme is popular right now like the fat teto or brazilian miku. It doesn't feel like any of the new fans are about autistic about it like i am.

>>31519
I think the problem is that the Vocaloid fanbase has always been very young. The people you mentioned that have outgrown Vocaloid were probably 12 during that era. Old fans leave and new fans within that age range who are unfamiliar with the old fans' idea of Vocaloid culture join, while you get older.
And the result is that you end up feeling isolated, because each day the amount of people within our age range who still like Vocaloid is getting lower.
>>31523
Society?

>>31531
Yeah, that's similar to my experience. Even VocaDB is dominated by kids and teenagers. It takes a pretty specific type of person to stick with this fandom for over 10 years.

>>31544
>It takes a pretty specific type of person to stick with this fandom for over 10 years.

Pretty much everyone on this site lol

>>31531
It is what it is. I was 10 when i got into Vocaloid. When i eventually turn 40 i'll probably still be listening to Vocaloid because at the end of the day we're all here for the music. But yeah i admit that i too miss making friends on Vocaloid forums and all that good stuff.

>>31548
Be like Hioka sensei. He's 40 and still loves Vocaloid as much as (You) do.

>>31519
This

The vocaloid fandom has always been filled with younger people. A lot of the zoomers that are now in their mid to late 20's were in their early 10's during the peak of Vocaloid in the 2010's. Millennials were in their mid to late 10's.

>>31551
Man, Japanese fans are lucky. Their age cap is about 10-15 years ahead of us.

>>24583
Because of Vocaloid 5 itself. It released at a time companies were still developing for V4, during the peak of AI voicebanks, making it immediately dated. On top of that it only received like 5 voicebanks (I heard somewhere that developing for it was expensive) and just a few years later they released Vocaloid 6.

>>31556
What do you mean? A lot of Japanese fans are young too

>>24481
The "disappearance" only brought her more love

>>31563
And collabs with Toyota kek

>>31557
Even V6 is pretty dated already but they still made up for that disaster with it

>>31558
There's a lot more fans in their 30s and early 40s compared to the west. They had a lot of young adult producers and artists from the start, after all.

>>31568
We have producers in their 30's too but they're people who started years ago like Circus-P

>>31531
Pretty much. We're all ojisans now so we feel like outsiders in our own community.

>>31519
even if you did happen to make vocaloid autist friends during the tumblr years, 95% of them ended up moving on to different fandoms and don't give vocaloid a second thought
the only vocaloid community that i like now is 39chan because of all the oldfags who also can't let go

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>>31582
Everybody moves on, but i still love the loids...

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>>31583
Don't worry I'm always here. If not I'll come back once in a while.

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>>31587
Thank you IAbro, i appreciate it
But i was more so referring to how people on SNS have more of a passing interest in Vocaloid rather than full on Vocaloid autism like people here

I'll never move on from Vocaloid

>>31589
Same here

>>31568
This applies to any Otaku adjacent hobby in Japan. There are Touhou fans in their 50s ans 60s for example.

>>31616
This